Meet the Author: interview with Jonah Berger

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Wharton Professor and best-selling author Jonah Berger has spent most of his career studying change, its impact on human behavior, and phenomena like viral marketing and social influence. In this episode of JMP On Air’s Meet the Author, Anne Milley interviews Dr. Berger to discuss his latest book, The Catalyst: How to change anyone's mind. Much like the idea of a catalyst in chemistry, Berger argues that there are a special set of circumstances one can apply to make change happen faster, easier and with less energy. The key is figuring out the barriers to change so you can lower the amount of energy an individual or group needs to employ to make a change. You’ll also learn the five barriers to change and more about the case studies and research Dr. Berger conducted to develop the core principles to overcoming objections to change he shares in his book … and this interview.

Full Transcript (Automatically Generated)

So we are really excited to see your doctor Jonah Berger, as Julian said, He's a professor at Wharton. And he's an international best selling author. You can see some of his books here. And we're going to be featuring him as the first guest on meet the author, segment on jump on air. Jonah, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. We really appreciate it. Oh, thanks so much for having me. So we really enjoyed your book, contagious, which you spoke about at jumped discovery summit 2014. And we're very pleased to see your new book, the catalysts out and doing very well. Please tell us what inspired you to write it.

Yeah, so contagious came out a number of years ago. And since then, I've had the chance to work with a variety of companies and organizations. So everything from big companies like the Googles, and apples and Nikes of the world to small startups. And what I realized was that every company, every organization, every person I talked to basically had some version of the same problem, which is they all had something that they wanted to change it Employees wanted to change their boss's mind and leaders wanted to transform organizations marketing people wanted to change the customer's mind and change consumer behavior. Startups wanted to change industries, nonprofits wanted to change the world. But there was one problem, which is that change is really hard, right? Often people are pushing and providing more information and reasons and it wasn't working. And so I started in some sense on a journey trying to figure out what could there be a better way to change minds and drive action? And if so, what was it?

Well, what is a catalyst? And how does that concept apply to your approach?

Yeah, so many of your audience are probably familiar with the idea in chemistry of a catalyst. I think more of us are familiar with it. In the broader notion of sort of something that changes something else, but in chemistry, it has a very specific meaning that I think is actually quite useful one, which is, as you know, chemistry changes really hard. Not only is it harder and when to change our boss's mind, it's much harder to change. Certain molecules or compounds into different things. And so chemists often add substances to make change happen faster and easier. They often increase the temperature increase the pressure to make reactions happen. But there's a special substance that they use a special set of substances that don't require more temperature or more pressure. And sometimes they create an alternate way for reactions to occur. They make the same change happen faster and easier and with less energy. And you might say, well, how is that possible? But these things do it through lowering the barrier to change, they don't add more temperature, they don't add more pressure, essentially, they find an alternate path that requires less energy. And these substances are called catalysts. And that's exactly what the book is all about. Usually, when we try to change minds, when we try to drive action, we think about some version of pushing, we add more energy. We think if we just give someone more reasons, facts, figures, I just make one more presentation. People will come around, but that often doesn't work. When we push people they often don't go they often push And so the book is all about, hey, there's actually a better way, not by pushing. But by removing those barriers to change by figuring out what the obstacles or barriers are, and mitigating them. I think a really good analogy. If you think about it, you know, imagine a car and it's parked on like an incline or something like that, and you're trying to get it to go and you put your foot on the gas, and it won't go and it won't go. You know, often when we want to change something, we think we just need more gas, just step harder on that gas pedal people will move. But less often we say, Well, wait, maybe I just need to depress that parking brake. And so the book is really about, you know, what are those hidden parking brakes? those obstacles, those barriers that often get in the way of change without us realizing it? And how by meeting them, can we make change more likely,

so interesting, and reflect like the emotional attachment that people have? And you just need to remove those barriers to let them let go? Maybe?

And, sorry, emotional attachment is certainly one. You know, one thing I talked about in the book is this notion of endowment. We're attached to old things, you know, people who longer they've lived. In a home, for example, the more they value it above and beyond market price, because they're emotionally attached to it, right? I've lived there for so long all my memories are attached in this place. I don't want to let it go. And so there's lots of research on the status quo bias and the endowment effect that shows we're very reticent to get rid of old things. At the same time, we're also scared of new things, right? new things often involve uncertainty. So the variety of different things with both letting go of the old as well as being scared of the new and some other things as well that often make change hard.

Change is hard. Well, in the introduction to your book, you make the distinction between changing minds and changing behaviors. And I want to just read quickly, it was short a couple sentences. You write sometimes you don't need to change someone's mind to drive action. Sometimes people are already open to changing your behavior. You just need to remove the roadblocks that make it easier to happen, as you were just saying, but then I have to ask too. Did you get some flack for the subtitle of how to change anyone's

mind? You know, I spent a while thinking about what what to title this And I think the first thing when someone reads that subtitles ago, anyone, I mean, we can't change anyone's mind. Right? I mean, sure, maybe we can change some people's minds, but anyone? What about someone of a different political party? You know, what about someone who's really, you know, unwilling to change their minds. But what's interesting is, is you know, I interviewed some people for this book. And yes, they interviewed great leaders and great salespeople, and people got their boss to come around. But I also interviewed some people who change is even more difficult. I talked to hostage negotiators. They get people to come out with their hands up. I talked to substance abuse counselors, they get people to quit, even after they've tried dozens of times and failed. I even talked to a rabbi who got former grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan to renounce the Ku Klux Klan and, and sort of, you know, give up those affiliations. I talked to Republicans that became Democrats, I talked to democrats that became Republicans. And so what I don't mean to suggest is changing anyone's mind is easy. There are certainly some people that are harder to change and others there are certainly some issues that are harder to change than others. One distinction I make in the book is sort of between pebbles and boulders, right? Are we moving something that's relatively small? Like a pebble? Yeah, requires some some effort, but not that much effort. We're trying to move a boulder which is going to be a lot bigger and a lot harder to change. I'm sure some of us are trying to move big, difficult things. But even in those really difficult situations, even when we might say there's no way a democrat would become a publican, there's no way republican would become a Democrat. There's no way you know, Klu Klux Klan member would would give it all up. People did change their minds. And so I think if you apply these tools, right, if you understand those barriers that are preventing change, really can change anyone's mind.

Yes, and behavior to good. Well, so you mentioned barriers, and you mentioned one of them, but can you tell us the five barriers to change?

Sure. So the first is reactance. The second is endowment. The third is distance, the forces uncertainty, and the fifth is corroborating evidence. And if you put those five together, they are an acronym. They spell reduce, which is exactly what good catalysts do. They don't push harder. They don't provide more facts, more figures and more reasons. They figure out what those barriers are, and they mitigate them. And I think by the way, that's really hard for us to do. You know, I did a lot of research looking at a variety of different individuals, I find that barrier blindness is really prevalent. Many people, if you ask them what they want to change, they have a really good sense of the outcome that they want to achieve. But they have a very bad sense about the barriers that are preventing change from happening. You know, most people know the boss said no, or the client didn't accept the project or the thing didn't happen. But if you ask them why they're often unaware of why it didn't happen, and so really have to start with that person whose mind we're trying to change. Think about a doctor, for example, you know, you walk into a doctor's office, a doctor's and say, Okay, here's a band aid or here's a finger splint, they start with a diagnostic to figure out what the problem is. And the same thing here we have to start with that person who are trying to change start with them, figure out what things are preventing them from engaging that desired action and use To mitigate those barriers and encourage them to come around.

Very good. Well, you mentioned the different case studies very briefly, and they were just so compelling these examples to illustrate how you can overcome those five barriers. How did you curate these cases?

You know, I wish I could say I had a magic formula. And I know the exact right way to do it. You know, I teach at the Wharton School. I've been a professor there now for over 13 years. Examples came from class examples came from research examples came from presenting these ideas and executive education sessions. Often sometimes people would hear something and go, Oh, but you know, can really anyone's mind be changed, you know, you should talk to these type of people. And so it's really interesting seeing some of the same types of approaches across areas. The first chapter for example, is all about reactance. All about when you push people they often push back and I talked about some strategies. There were parenting experts talk about applying them with their kids and smart consultants talk about using them with their clients and really from two or three different angles, I saw different groups of people applying the same underlying idea in slightly different ways. And so part of the fun of writing this book was really seeing how the same basic psychological principles can be applied in a whole host of situations, sometimes applied slightly differently, sometimes with a bit more nuanced or a bit more detail in one place versus another. But the ideas, the core principles are very much the same.

I loved how you were so objective and how you treated, you know, these case studies to recount the ins and outs of how the change happened. But I'm wondering if people identify with one of those people like a democrat or republican or what have you think it's hard for them to read and examine their own ways of thinking,

you know, so, if the book came out, and there were some early reviews before it was actually even out so we gave it to some sort of readers who were able to read it online through the Amazon vine program, and a couple of those early readers got a Little bit upset, because they felt like some of the examples were things they didn't think needed to be changed. So you know, they might have been one member of a certain political party, they didn't believe someone should change to the other side, they might have felt a certain social issue, there was a right and wrong. And, you know, there's no reason that people should be changed on that social issue. You know, it's not my job to tell people how to be. I think that's a little bit narrow minded, but I think the principles are very much the same. And so I tried hard in the book, not to take a political stance, to show that, you know, whether you agree with one side or the other, there are people that move in both sides. And I think understanding those principles and why they work can be applied to any situation. I think some people would say, well, oh, you know, aren't we manipulating people? Or, oh, you know, aren't we using these tools for evil? I mean, that's, that's a tough question. And I think, you know, even a hammer can be used for bad things. It's not the hammer itself. That's bad. It's how we use it that that's bad. And so my hope really is to help people apply these tools for good to change the world in industry. ways by understanding why change hasn't happened already.

Right? Well, I like that you use such compelling examples I thought it was, it made it so much more interesting to read. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. You mentioned earlier about, we shouldn't just push on the gas more, and we can't just, you know, keep going with the facts and the figures. So, why does that work? Or might that work with some people that are maybe a little bit more logical and don't have as many barriers to overcome?

Yeah, you know, I think particularly for this audience, more of a sort of a technical tech savvy, you know, highly educated audience. We think that people are like us, right, that everyone should behave rationally that if you just give people the right information, they'll come around. I think a good analogy to think about you know, imagine you're in a room with a chair and you want a chair to move in a certain direction. Pushing that chair is a great way to get it to go. Push that chair in the direction that you want it to go. The chair goes in the direction that you want it to go. But there's one problem. People are not chairs. And when you push people, they often dig in their heels, they don't just go along, they push back We have in some sense an anti persuasion radar defense system almost anything about a spidey sense or a missile defense system that goes off when we hear someone trying to persuade us, right, we avoid the message, we ignore it. Think about when you get a call from a telemarketer or an email from a salesperson, we often hit Delete without reading it. We know someone's trying to persuade us our defenses. Our radar goes up, we knocked down those incoming projectiles. But even worse, someone seems like they're listening. But they're actually spending a lot of time counter arguing. Yes, they're shaking their head and they're listening to what we're saying. But in their mind, they're thinking about all the reasons why what we're suggesting is wrong. Oh, that will cost too much. Oh, that won't actually work. Oh, that is difficult to to apply or this other person won't won't like it. And so rather than just sitting there passively listening, they're thinking about all the reasons why they don't like what we're suggesting, and the core that barriers reactance. I talked about that a lot in the reactance chapter, how people like to think they're the drivers of their own behavior. And so we really need to make them feel like they're They're in control. Rather than trying to sell something, get people to buy in. Rather than trying to persuade someone, get them to persuade themselves by understanding how to make them part of the decision making process and give them that sense of agency.

I think it's so important that we all know about different ways of thinking and overcoming change, because we all have different people that we deal with. So yeah, certainly. Yeah. Good, good. Well, um, does culture influence how people react to messages and recommendations, and warnings?

Yeah. It's an interesting question. I just wrote a piece for HBr related to the Coronavirus, all about sort of, you know, applying these tools and techniques to getting people to engage in health behaviors that they should engage in or avoid going out or wear masks and so on. And what's so interesting is often telling people not to do something actually can make them more likely to do it. Talk about that idea of reactance. When we tell people what to do, they say, well, don't tell me what to do. Do I want to do whatever I want? And so we need to figure out how to get them to come along, not by telling them what to do. But again, engaging them in that process. You know, you mentioned culture, I tell a great story in that reactance chapter about an anti smoking ad from Thailand. So it's this organization that wants people to call a quit line. Rather than telling people to quit. What they do is they have kids walk up to smokers on the street, and ask those smokers Hey, can I get a light? Now imagine you're a smoker, the little kid comes up to you and asks you to have a light you say no, of course not. Right? And they shoot these amazing videos of the smokers telling these kids why smoking is a terrible idea. bad for your lungs, you want to be able to exercise Don't you want to go run and play? Nobody knows more about the dangers of smoking than than smokers. And at the end of that interaction, the kid hands a smoker, a piece of paper that says you worry about me, but why not yourself, right? If you want to quit call this helpline. Now notice what they didn't do. They didn't tell us focus. You have to quit. Here's what you should do. They just did. What I call highlighting a gap, they pointed out a gap between what the smoker is doing for themselves and what they would recommend for someone else. And then they leave that gap to let the smoker deal with it. And it leverages what's called cognitive dissonance. When people's attitudes and their actions don't line up, they often want to do some work to bridge that gap to make their attitudes and their actions more in line. And so in this case, many smokers called the quit line and quit, because they didn't want to seem like they're being hypocritical. I told those kids not to smoke, I probably shouldn't smoke either. Now, that's examples from Thailand. But I'm sure many of us listening can resonate with that same idea. We can apply the same notion of highlighting a gap, very different context. But to the office, right? Imagine there's a boss or a colleague that doesn't want to kill an old project. The project is losing money or it's not working, but they don't want to kill it. They have that status quo bias. They're attached to it. Rather than telling them No, we should kill this project. What if you say, well, Hey, would you recommend another company to start this project or have a different department knew what we knew now? Would you recommend they do something similar and that You'd probably say no, I mean, knowing what we know now we definitely wouldn't start something like this. Okay, well then why are we doing it? Right? Again, not telling them don't do it, but encouraging them to see well hold on. That's an interesting point. I said this, but I'm also feeling this, these two things aren't in line. How do I make them work together and so encouraging them to do the work themselves?

Right, thank goodness people do such creative experiments for us to understand. Well, Jonah, this has been such a pleasure to have you thank you so much for taking the time and want to recommend your book again to our viewers. And if you want to get the very compelling introduction to Jonas both you can go to jump comm slash catalyst. Thanks again, Jonah

So we are really excited to see your doctor Jonah Berger, as Julian said, He's a professor at Wharton. And he's an international best selling author. You can see some of his books here. And we're going to be featuring him as the first guest on meet the author, segment on jump on air. Jonah, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. We really appreciate it. Oh, thanks so much for having me. So we really enjoyed your book, contagious, which you spoke about at jumped discovery summit 2014. And we're very pleased to see your new book, the catalysts out and doing very well. Please tell us what inspired you to write it. Yeah, so contagious came out a number of years ago. And since then, I've had the chance to work with a variety of companies and organizations. So everything from big companies like the Googles, and apples and Nikes of the world to small startups. And what I realized was that every company, every organization, every person I talked to basically had some version of the same problem, which is they all had something that they wanted to change it Employees wanted to change their boss's mind and leaders wanted to transform organizations marketing people wanted to change the customer's mind and change consumer behavior. Startups wanted to change industries, nonprofits wanted to change the world. But there was one problem, which is that change is really hard, right? Often people are pushing and providing more information and reasons and it wasn't working. And so I started in some sense on a journey trying to figure out what could there be a better way to change minds and drive action? And if so, what was it? Well, what is a catalyst? And how does that concept apply to your approach? Yeah, so many of your audience are probably familiar with the idea in chemistry of a catalyst. I think more of us are familiar with it. In the broader notion of sort of something that changes something else, but in chemistry, it has a very specific meaning that I think is actually quite useful one, which is, as you know, chemistry changes really hard. Not only is it harder and when to change our boss's mind, it's much harder to change. Certain molecules or compounds into different things. And so chemists often add substances to make change happen faster and easier. They often increase the temperature increase the pressure to make reactions happen. But there's a special substance that they use a special set of substances that don't require more temperature or more pressure. And sometimes they create an alternate way for reactions to occur. They make the same change happen faster and easier and with less energy. And you might say, well, how is that possible? But these things do it through lowering the barrier to change, they don't add more temperature, they don't add more pressure, essentially, they find an alternate path that requires less energy. And these substances are called catalysts. And that's exactly what the book is all about. Usually, when we try to change minds, when we try to drive action, we think about some version of pushing, we add more energy. We think if we just give someone more reasons, facts, figures, I just make one more presentation. People will come around, but that often doesn't work. When we push people they often don't go they often push And so the book is all about, hey, there's actually a better way, not by pushing. But by removing those barriers to change by figuring out what the obstacles or barriers are, and mitigating them. I think a really good analogy. If you think about it, you know, imagine a car and it's parked on like an incline or something like that, and you're trying to get it to go and you put your foot on the gas, and it won't go and it won't go. You know, often when we want to change something, we think we just need more gas, just step harder on that gas pedal people will move. But less often we say, Well, wait, maybe I just need to depress that parking brake. And so the book is really about, you know, what are those hidden parking brakes? those obstacles, those barriers that often get in the way of change without us realizing it? And how by meeting them, can we make change more likely, so interesting, and reflect like the emotional attachment that people have? And you just need to remove those barriers to let them let go? Maybe? And, sorry, emotional attachment is certainly one. You know, one thing I talked about in the book is this notion of endowment. We're attached to old things, you know, people who longer they've lived. In a home, for example, the more they value it above and beyond market price, because they're emotionally attached to it, right? I've lived there for so long all my memories are attached in this place. I don't want to let it go. And so there's lots of research on the status quo bias and the endowment effect that shows we're very reticent to get rid of old things. At the same time, we're also scared of new things, right? new things often involve uncertainty. So the variety of different things with both letting go of the old as well as being scared of the new and some other things as well that often make change hard. Change is hard. Well, in the introduction to your book, you make the distinction between changing minds and changing behaviors. And I want to just read quickly, it was short a couple sentences. You write sometimes you don't need to change someone's mind to drive action. Sometimes people are already open to changing your behavior. You just need to remove the roadblocks that make it easier to happen, as you were just saying, but then I have to ask too. Did you get some flack for the subtitle of how to change anyone's mind? You know, I spent a while thinking about what what to title this And I think the first thing when someone reads that subtitles ago, anyone, I mean, we can't change anyone's mind. Right? I mean, sure, maybe we can change some people's minds, but anyone? What about someone of a different political party? You know, what about someone who's really, you know, unwilling to change their minds. But what's interesting is, is you know, I interviewed some people for this book. And yes, they interviewed great leaders and great salespeople, and people got their boss to come around. But I also interviewed some people who change is even more difficult. I talked to hostage negotiators. They get people to come out with their hands up. I talked to substance abuse counselors, they get people to quit, even after they've tried dozens of times and failed. I even talked to a rabbi who got former grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan to renounce the Ku Klux Klan and, and sort of, you know, give up those affiliations. I talked to Republicans that became Democrats, I talked to democrats that became Republicans. And so what I don't mean to suggest is changing anyone's mind is easy. There are certainly some people that are harder to change and others there are certainly some issues that are harder to change than others. One distinction I make in the book is sort of between pebbles and boulders, right? Are we moving something that's relatively small? Like a pebble? Yeah, requires some some effort, but not that much effort. We're trying to move a boulder which is going to be a lot bigger and a lot harder to change. I'm sure some of us are trying to move big, difficult things. But even in those really difficult situations, even when we might say there's no way a democrat would become a publican, there's no way republican would become a Democrat. There's no way you know, Klu Klux Klan member would would give it all up. People did change their minds. And so I think if you apply these tools, right, if you understand those barriers that are preventing change, really can change anyone's mind. Yes, and behavior to good. Well, so you mentioned barriers, and you mentioned one of them, but can you tell us the five barriers to change? Sure. So the first is reactance. The second is endowment. The third is distance, the forces uncertainty, and the fifth is corroborating evidence. And if you put those five together, they are an acronym. They spell reduce, which is exactly what good catalysts do. They don't push harder. They don't provide more facts, more figures and more reasons. They figure out what those barriers are, and they mitigate them. And I think by the way, that's really hard for us to do. You know, I did a lot of research looking at a variety of different individuals, I find that barrier blindness is really prevalent. Many people, if you ask them what they want to change, they have a really good sense of the outcome that they want to achieve. But they have a very bad sense about the barriers that are preventing change from happening. You know, most people know the boss said no, or the client didn't accept the project or the thing didn't happen. But if you ask them why they're often unaware of why it didn't happen, and so really have to start with that person whose mind we're trying to change. Think about a doctor, for example, you know, you walk into a doctor's office, a doctor's and say, Okay, here's a band aid or here's a finger splint, they start with a diagnostic to figure out what the problem is. And the same thing here we have to start with that person who are trying to change start with them, figure out what things are preventing them from engaging that desired action and use To mitigate those barriers and encourage them to come around. Very good. Well, you mentioned the different case studies very briefly, and they were just so compelling these examples to illustrate how you can overcome those five barriers. How did you curate these cases? You know, I wish I could say I had a magic formula. And I know the exact right way to do it. You know, I teach at the Wharton School. I've been a professor there now for over 13 years. Examples came from class examples came from research examples came from presenting these ideas and executive education sessions. Often sometimes people would hear something and go, Oh, but you know, can really anyone's mind be changed, you know, you should talk to these type of people. And so it's really interesting seeing some of the same types of approaches across areas. The first chapter for example, is all about reactance. All about when you push people they often push back and I talked about some strategies. There were parenting experts talk about applying them with their kids and smart consultants talk about using them with their clients and really from two or three different angles, I saw different groups of people applying the same underlying idea in slightly different ways. And so part of the fun of writing this book was really seeing how the same basic psychological principles can be applied in a whole host of situations, sometimes applied slightly differently, sometimes with a bit more nuanced or a bit more detail in one place versus another. But the ideas, the core principles are very much the same. I loved how you were so objective and how you treated, you know, these case studies to recount the ins and outs of how the change happened. But I'm wondering if people identify with one of those people like a democrat or republican or what have you think it's hard for them to read and examine their own ways of thinking, you know, so, if the book came out, and there were some early reviews before it was actually even out so we gave it to some sort of readers who were able to read it online through the Amazon vine program, and a couple of those early readers got a Little bit upset, because they felt like some of the examples were things they didn't think needed to be changed. So you know, they might have been one member of a certain political party, they didn't believe someone should change to the other side, they might have felt a certain social issue, there was a right and wrong. And, you know, there's no reason that people should be changed on that social issue. You know, it's not my job to tell people how to be. I think that's a little bit narrow minded, but I think the principles are very much the same. And so I tried hard in the book, not to take a political stance, to show that, you know, whether you agree with one side or the other, there are people that move in both sides. And I think understanding those principles and why they work can be applied to any situation. I think some people would say, well, oh, you know, aren't we manipulating people? Or, oh, you know, aren't we using these tools for evil? I mean, that's, that's a tough question. And I think, you know, even a hammer can be used for bad things. It's not the hammer itself. That's bad. It's how we use it that that's bad. And so my hope really is to help people apply these tools for good to change the world in industry. ways by understanding why change hasn't happened already. Right? Well, I like that you use such compelling examples I thought it was, it made it so much more interesting to read. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. You mentioned earlier about, we shouldn't just push on the gas more, and we can't just, you know, keep going with the facts and the figures. So, why does that work? Or might that work with some people that are maybe a little bit more logical and don't have as many barriers to overcome? Yeah, you know, I think particularly for this audience, more of a sort of a technical tech savvy, you know, highly educated audience. We think that people are like us, right, that everyone should behave rationally that if you just give people the right information, they'll come around. I think a good analogy to think about you know, imagine you're in a room with a chair and you want a chair to move in a certain direction. Pushing that chair is a great way to get it to go. Push that chair in the direction that you want it to go. The chair goes in the direction that you want it to go. But there's one problem. People are not chairs. And when you push people, they often dig in their heels, they don't just go along, they push back We have in some sense an anti persuasion radar defense system almost anything about a spidey sense or a missile defense system that goes off when we hear someone trying to persuade us, right, we avoid the message, we ignore it. Think about when you get a call from a telemarketer or an email from a salesperson, we often hit Delete without reading it. We know someone's trying to persuade us our defenses. Our radar goes up, we knocked down those incoming projectiles. But even worse, someone seems like they're listening. But they're actually spending a lot of time counter arguing. Yes, they're shaking their head and they're listening to what we're saying. But in their mind, they're thinking about all the reasons why what we're suggesting is wrong. Oh, that will cost too much. Oh, that won't actually work. Oh, that is difficult to to apply or this other person won't won't like it. And so rather than just sitting there passively listening, they're thinking about all the reasons why they don't like what we're suggesting, and the core that barriers reactance. I talked about that a lot in the reactance chapter, how people like to think they're the drivers of their own behavior. And so we really need to make them feel like they're They're in control. Rather than trying to sell something, get people to buy in. Rather than trying to persuade someone, get them to persuade themselves by understanding how to make them part of the decision making process and give them that sense of agency. I think it's so important that we all know about different ways of thinking and overcoming change, because we all have different people that we deal with. So yeah, certainly. Yeah. Good, good. Well, um, does culture influence how people react to messages and recommendations, and warnings? Yeah. It's an interesting question. I just wrote a piece for HBr related to the Coronavirus, all about sort of, you know, applying these tools and techniques to getting people to engage in health behaviors that they should engage in or avoid going out or wear masks and so on. And what's so interesting is often telling people not to do something actually can make them more likely to do it. Talk about that idea of reactance. When we tell people what to do, they say, well, don't tell me what to do. Do I want to do whatever I want? And so we need to figure out how to get them to come along, not by telling them what to do. But again, engaging them in that process. You know, you mentioned culture, I tell a great story in that reactance chapter about an anti smoking ad from Thailand. So it's this organization that wants people to call a quit line. Rather than telling people to quit. What they do is they have kids walk up to smokers on the street, and ask those smokers Hey, can I get a light? Now imagine you're a smoker, the little kid comes up to you and asks you to have a light you say no, of course not. Right? And they shoot these amazing videos of the smokers telling these kids why smoking is a terrible idea. bad for your lungs, you want to be able to exercise Don't you want to go run and play? Nobody knows more about the dangers of smoking than than smokers. And at the end of that interaction, the kid hands a smoker, a piece of paper that says you worry about me, but why not yourself, right? If you want to quit call this helpline. Now notice what they didn't do. They didn't tell us focus. You have to quit. Here's what you should do. They just did. What I call highlighting a gap, they pointed out a gap between what the smoker is doing for themselves and what they would recommend for someone else. And then they leave that gap to let the smoker deal with it. And it leverages what's called cognitive dissonance. When people's attitudes and their actions don't line up, they often want to do some work to bridge that gap to make their attitudes and their actions more in line. And so in this case, many smokers called the quit line and quit, because they didn't want to seem like they're being hypocritical. I told those kids not to smoke, I probably shouldn't smoke either. Now, that's examples from Thailand. But I'm sure many of us listening can resonate with that same idea. We can apply the same notion of highlighting a gap, very different context. But to the office, right? Imagine there's a boss or a colleague that doesn't want to kill an old project. The project is losing money or it's not working, but they don't want to kill it. They have that status quo bias. They're attached to it. Rather than telling them No, we should kill this project. What if you say, well, Hey, would you recommend another company to start this project or have a different department knew what we knew now? Would you recommend they do something similar and that You'd probably say no, I mean, knowing what we know now we definitely wouldn't start something like this. Okay, well then why are we doing it? Right? Again, not telling them don't do it, but encouraging them to see well hold on. That's an interesting point. I said this, but I'm also feeling this, these two things aren't in line. How do I make them work together and so encouraging them to do the work themselves? Right, thank goodness people do such creative experiments for us to understand. Well, Jonah, this has been such a pleasure to have you thank you so much for taking the time and want to recommend your book again to our viewers. And if you want to get the very compelling introduction to Jonas both you can go to jump comm slash catalyst. Thanks again, Jonah

Diana_Levey · ‎04-20-2020

One of my favorite JMP On Air segments so far!