cancel
Showing results for 
Show  only  | Search instead for 
Did you mean: 

Discussions

Solve problems, and share tips and tricks with other JMP users.
%3CLINGO-SUB%20id%3D%22lingo-sub-366290%22%20slang%3D%22en-US%22%20mode%3D%22NONE%22%3ELa%20variabile%20confonde%20con%20il%20residuo%3C%2FLINGO-SUB%3E%3CLINGO-BODY%20id%3D%22lingo-body-366290%22%20slang%3D%22en-US%22%20mode%3D%22NONE%22%3E%3CP%3ECIAO%2C%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3E%26nbsp%3B%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3ESto%20tentando%20di%20analizzare%20i%20dati%20per%20uno%20studio%20interlaboratorio%20con%20un%20modello%20misto%2C%20%C3%A8%20un%20disegno%20annidato%20con%205%20variabili%2C%20la%20variabile%20dipendente%20sono%20i%20titoli%2C%20la%20struttura%20della%20mia%20analisi%20%C3%A8%20la%20seguente%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3E%3CU%3EEffetto%20fisso%3C%2FU%3E%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3ECampione%20(30%20di)%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3E%3CU%3EEffetti%20casuali%3C%2FU%3E%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3ECampione*Lab%20(3%20livelli)%3CBR%20%2F%3E%20Campione*Giorno%20(3%20livelli)%3CBR%20%2F%3E%20Campione*Esecuzione%20(2%20livelli)%3CBR%20%2F%3E%20Replica%5BCampione%2CLab%2CGiorno%2CEsegui%5D%20(la%20replica%20ha%202%20livelli)%3CBR%20%2F%3E%20Campione*Laboratorio*Giornata%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3E%26nbsp%3B%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3ERicevo%20il%20messaggio%20di%20errore%20che%20Replica%5BCampione%2CLab%2CGiorno%2CEsegui%5D%20confonde%20con%20residuo%2C%20questa%20%C3%A8%20la%20prima%20volta%20che%20incontro%20questo%20messaggio%20e%20non%20sono%20sicuro%20di%20cosa%20mi%20stia%20dicendo%2C%20qualcuno%20ha%20gi%C3%A0%20riscontrato%20questo%20problema%20e%20come%20ha%20fatto%20a%20superarlo%20Esso%3F%3F%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3E%26nbsp%3B%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3EGrazie%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3EMick%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3E%26nbsp%3B%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3E%26nbsp%3B%3C%2FP%3E%3C%2FLINGO-BODY%3E%3CLINGO-LABS%20id%3D%22lingo-labs-366290%22%20slang%3D%22en-US%22%20mode%3D%22NONE%22%3E%3CLINGO-LABEL%3EModellazione%20statistica%20avanzata%3C%2FLINGO-LABEL%3E%3CLINGO-LABEL%3EIngegneria%20della%20qualit%C3%A0%20e%20dei%20processi%3C%2FLINGO-LABEL%3E%3C%2FLINGO-LABS%3E%3CLINGO-SUB%20id%3D%22lingo-sub-367047%22%20slang%3D%22en-US%22%20mode%3D%22NONE%22%3ERe%3A%20La%20variabile%20confonde%20con%20il%20residuo%3C%2FLINGO-SUB%3E%3CLINGO-BODY%20id%3D%22lingo-body-367047%22%20slang%3D%22en-US%22%20mode%3D%22NONE%22%3E%3CP%3ENO.%3C%2FP%3E%0A%3CP%3E%26nbsp%3B%3C%2FP%3E%0A%3CP%3ES%C3%AC%2C%20le%20repliche%20sono%20correlate%2C%20ma%20la%20correlazione%20%C3%A8%20rappresentata%20dagli%20altri%20termini%20del%20modello.%20Non%20includerei%20esplicitamente%20la%20replica%20nel%20modello.%20%C3%88%20implicitamente%20inclusa%20come%20varianza%20residua.%20Il%20presupposto%20del%20consueto%20modello%20di%20regressione%20lineare%20%C3%A8%20che%20la%20varianza%20residua%20sia%20indipendente%20dal%20livello%20di%20risposta.%20Assicurati%20di%20eseguire%20attentamente%20l'analisi%20dei%20residui%20per%20verificare%20questa%20e%20altre%20ipotesi.%3C%2FP%3E%0A%3CP%3E%26nbsp%3B%3C%2FP%3E%0A%3CP%3EIn%20altre%20parole%2C%20la%20struttura%20definita%2C%20compreso%20l'annidamento%2C%20%C3%A8%20corretta%2C%20ma%20non%20%C3%A8%20necessario%20includere%20il%20livello%20pi%C3%B9%20basso%20della%20struttura%20nei%20termini%20del%20modello.%3C%2FP%3E%3C%2FLINGO-BODY%3E%3CLINGO-SUB%20id%3D%22lingo-sub-367044%22%20slang%3D%22en-US%22%20mode%3D%22NONE%22%3ERe%3A%20La%20variabile%20confonde%20con%20il%20residuo%3C%2FLINGO-SUB%3E%3CLINGO-BODY%20id%3D%22lingo-body-367044%22%20slang%3D%22en-US%22%20mode%3D%22NONE%22%3E%3CP%3EIl%20campione%20mentre%20lo%20definisci%20e%20lo%20usi%20%C3%A8%20un%20effetto%20FISSO%20sulla%20risposta.%3C%2FP%3E%0A%3CP%3E%26nbsp%3B%3C%2FP%3E%0A%3CP%3EAncora%20una%20volta%2C%20includi%20gli%20effetti%20principali%20per%20rispondere%20alle%20domande%20principali.%20%C3%88%20possibile%20includere%20termini%20incrociati%20per%20stimare%20e%20testare%20gli%20effetti%20di%20interazione%20se%20si%20sospetta%20che%20l'effetto%20degli%20altri%20fattori%20cambi%20da%20un%20campione%20all'altro.%20%C3%88%20un'aspettativa%20ragionevole%3F%20C'%C3%A8%20un%20precedente%20a%20riguardo%3F%20Oppure%20%C3%A8%20da%20escludere%20a%20priori%3F%3C%2FP%3E%3C%2FLINGO-BODY%3E%3CLINGO-SUB%20id%3D%22lingo-sub-366985%22%20slang%3D%22en-US%22%20mode%3D%22NONE%22%3ERe%3A%20La%20variabile%20confonde%20con%20il%20residuo%3C%2FLINGO-SUB%3E%3CLINGO-BODY%20id%3D%22lingo-body-366985%22%20slang%3D%22en-US%22%20mode%3D%22NONE%22%3E%3CP%3EPotrei%20sopravvalutare%20il%20numero%20di%20livelli%20nei%20dati%2C%20se%20volessi%20includere%20il%20livello%20di%20dati%20pi%C3%B9%20basso%2C%20replicarli%20sarebbe%20correlato%20e%20lo%20stesso%20si%20potrebbe%20dire%20della%20corsa%2C%20non%20cos%C3%AC%20per%20il%20giorno%20quindi%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3ECampione%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3ELaboratorio%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3EGiorno%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3ECorri%5BLaboratorio%2C%20Giorno%5D%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3EReplica%5BLab%2CGiorno%2CEsegui%5D%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3EQuindi%20Sample%2C%20Lab%20e%20Day%20come%20effetti%20principali%20hanno%20senso%20e%2C%20a%20causa%20del%20clustering%20in%20Replicate%20ed%20Run%2C%20dovrebbero%20essere%20specificati%20come%20nidificati%3F%3F%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3E%26nbsp%3B%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3ETi%20sembra%20giusto%3F%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3E%26nbsp%3B%3C%2FP%3E%3C%2FLINGO-BODY%3E%3CLINGO-SUB%20id%3D%22lingo-sub-366964%22%20slang%3D%22en-US%22%20mode%3D%22NONE%22%3ERe%3A%20La%20variabile%20confonde%20con%20il%20residuo%3C%2FLINGO-SUB%3E%3CLINGO-BODY%20id%3D%22lingo-body-366964%22%20slang%3D%22en-US%22%20mode%3D%22NONE%22%3E%3CP%3EGrazie%20per%20il%20tuo%20aiuto%3CA%20href%3D%22https%3A%2F%2Fcommunity.jmp.com%2Ft5%2Fuser%2Fviewprofilepage%2Fuser-id%2F5358%22%20target%3D%22_blank%22%3E%20%40Mark_Bailey%3C%2FA%3E%20%2C%20%C3%A8%20molto%20apprezzato%2C%20%C3%A8%20interessante%20e%20immagino%20dipenda%20dalla%20domanda%20di%20ricerca%20a%20cui%20voglio%20rispondere%20e%20%22come%20la%20deviazione%20media%20di%20ogni%20giorno%20dipende%20dal%20campione%22%20%C3%A8%20una%20di%20queste%2C%20poich%C3%A9%20i%20campioni%20sono%20stati%20inviati%20da%20un'unica%20fonte%2C%20quindi%20la%20varianza%20dovrebbe%20essere%20tutta%20la%20stessa%20(pensiero%20sciocco%3F)%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3ELa%20struttura%20dei%20dati%20%C3%A8%20quella%20del%20file%20Excel%20allegato%2C%20X%203%20labs%2C%20quindi%20la%20sintassi%20corretta%20per%20il%20modello%20misto%20per%20stimare%20la%20percentuale%20percentuale%20di%20variazione%20spiegata%20di%20ogni%20livello%20dovrebbe%20assomigliare%20a%20questa%2C%20tutti%20come%20effetti%20casuali%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3ELaboratorio%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3EGiorno%5BLaboratorio%5D%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3ECorri%5BGiorno%2C%20Laboratorio%5D%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3Ese%20poi%20volessi%20includere%20il%20campione%20per%20vedere%20la%20percentuale%20percentuale%20di%20variazione%20spiegata%20dal%20campione%20l%2C%20includerei%20il%20campione%20come%20effetto%20casuale%2C%20lo%20tralascerei%20come%20effetto%20fisso%20e%20la%20sintassi%20sarebbe%20simile%20a%20questa%2C%20tutti%20come%20effetti%20casuali%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3ECampione%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3ELaboratorio%3CBR%20%2F%3E%20Giorno%5BLaboratorio%5D%3CBR%20%2F%3E%20Corri%5BGiorno%2C%20Laboratorio%5D%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3EPoich%C3%A9%20il%20campione%20non%20si%20adatta%20alla%20struttura%20dei%20dati%2C%20%C3%A8%20solo%20un%20effetto%20principale%20cos%C3%AC%20come%20Lab%3F%3F%3F%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3EQuesto%20intuitivamente%20mi%20sembra%20corretto%2C%20ma%20qualsiasi%20consiglio%20sarebbe%20apprezzato.%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3E%26nbsp%3B%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3EGrazie%20mille%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3E%26nbsp%3B%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3E%26nbsp%3B%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3E%26nbsp%3B%3C%2FP%3E%3C%2FLINGO-BODY%3E%3CLINGO-SUB%20id%3D%22lingo-sub-366806%22%20slang%3D%22en-US%22%20mode%3D%22NONE%22%3ERe%3A%20La%20variabile%20confonde%20con%20il%20residuo%3C%2FLINGO-SUB%3E%3CLINGO-BODY%20id%3D%22lingo-body-366806%22%20slang%3D%22en-US%22%20mode%3D%22NONE%22%3E%3CP%3ELa%20deviazione%20di%20ciascun%20livello%20dalla%20media%20%C3%A8%20il%20semplice%20effetto%20principale%20Campione%2C%20Laboratorio%2C%20Giorno%20e%20Analisi.%20Non%20i%20prodotti%20incrociati%20con%20Sample.%20I%20termini%20di%20interazione%20catturano%20il%20modo%20in%20cui%20l'effetto%20di%20una%20variabile%20dipende%20dal%20livello%20di%20un%20altro%20fattore.%20Quindi%20il%20termine%20Giorno%20rappresenta%20la%20deviazione%20media%20di%20ogni%20giorno%20mentre%20il%20termine%20Campione*Giorno%20rappresenta%20il%20modo%20in%20cui%20la%20deviazione%20media%20di%20ogni%20giorno%20dipende%20dal%20campione.%3C%2FP%3E%0A%3CP%3E%26nbsp%3B%3C%2FP%3E%0A%3CP%3EL'annidamento%20di%20livelli%20come%20Run%20in%20Day%2C%20ad%20esempio%2C%20potrebbe%20impedire%20di%20stimare%20gli%20effetti%20dell'interazione.%3C%2FP%3E%3C%2FLINGO-BODY%3E%3CLINGO-SUB%20id%3D%22lingo-sub-366678%22%20slang%3D%22en-US%22%20mode%3D%22NONE%22%3ERe%3A%20La%20variabile%20confonde%20con%20il%20residuo%3C%2FLINGO-SUB%3E%3CLINGO-BODY%20id%3D%22lingo-body-366678%22%20slang%3D%22en-US%22%20mode%3D%22NONE%22%3E%3CP%3ESto%20interpretando%20l'interazione%20di%20sample*Lab%2C%20sample*Day%20e%20Run%5BSample%2CLab%2CDay%5D%20come%20i%20miei%20effetti%20principali%20di%20Lab%2C%20Day%20e%20Run%2C%20quindi%20per%20lab%2C%20includendo%20le%20pendenze%20casuali%20e%20l'intercetta%2C%20voglio%20vedere%20il%20deviazione%20per%20ciascun%20laboratorio%20dall'effetto%20medio%20del%20campione%2C%20e%20interpreter%C3%B2%20questo%20come%20il%20mio%20effetto%20principale.%3C%2FP%3E%3C%2FLINGO-BODY%3E%3CLINGO-SUB%20id%3D%22lingo-sub-366675%22%20slang%3D%22en-US%22%20mode%3D%22NONE%22%3ERe%3A%20La%20variabile%20confonde%20con%20il%20residuo%3C%2FLINGO-SUB%3E%3CLINGO-BODY%20id%3D%22lingo-body-366675%22%20slang%3D%22en-US%22%20mode%3D%22NONE%22%3E%3CP%3EOK%2C%20capito%3C%2FP%3E%3C%2FLINGO-BODY%3E%3CLINGO-SUB%20id%3D%22lingo-sub-366326%22%20slang%3D%22en-US%22%20mode%3D%22NONE%22%3ERe%3A%20La%20variabile%20confonde%20con%20il%20residuo%3C%2FLINGO-SUB%3E%3CLINGO-BODY%20id%3D%22lingo-body-366326%22%20slang%3D%22en-US%22%20mode%3D%22NONE%22%3E%3CP%3EIncluderai%20anche%20i%20principali%20effetti%20casuali%20di%20Lab%2C%20Run%20e%20Day%3F%3C%2FP%3E%3C%2FLINGO-BODY%3E%3CLINGO-SUB%20id%3D%22lingo-sub-366323%22%20slang%3D%22en-US%22%20mode%3D%22NONE%22%3ERe%3A%20La%20variabile%20confonde%20con%20il%20residuo%3C%2FLINGO-SUB%3E%3CLINGO-BODY%20id%3D%22lingo-body-366323%22%20slang%3D%22en-US%22%20mode%3D%22NONE%22%3E%3CP%3EIl%20residuo%20%C3%A8%20automaticamente%20l'effetto%20casuale%20pi%C3%B9%20basso.%20Se%20il%20residuo%20di%20ciascuna%20osservazione%20%C3%A8%20effettivamente%20uguale%20al%20livello%20replicato%20dell'effetto%20casuale%2C%20allora%20vengono%20confusi.%20Lasciare%20la%20replica%20fuori%20dal%20modello.%20La%20stima%20residua%20%C3%A8%20la%20stima%20replicata.%3C%2FP%3E%3C%2FLINGO-BODY%3E%3CLINGO-SUB%20id%3D%22lingo-sub-366296%22%20slang%3D%22en-US%22%20mode%3D%22NONE%22%3ERe%3A%20La%20variabile%20confonde%20con%20il%20residuo%3C%2FLINGO-SUB%3E%3CLINGO-BODY%20id%3D%22lingo-body-366296%22%20slang%3D%22en-US%22%20mode%3D%22NONE%22%3E%3CP%3EPensavo%20di%20rispondere%20al%20mio%20post%2C%20penso%20di%20aver%20complicato%20le%20cose%2C%20ho%20riprovato%20con%20un%20modello%20semplificato%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3ECampione%3CFONT%20color%3D%22%23ff0000%22%3E%20Effetto%20fisso%3C%2FFONT%3E%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3ECampione*Laboratorio%20e%20casuale%3CFONT%20color%3D%22%23ff0000%22%3E%20Varianza%20di%20laboratorio%3C%2FFONT%3E%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3EEsegui%5BCampione%2CLab%2CGiorno%5D%20e%20Casuale%3CFONT%20color%3D%22%23ff0000%22%3E%20Esegui%20varianza%3C%2FFONT%3E%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3ECampione*Lab*Giorno%20e%20casuale%3CFONT%20color%3D%22%23ff0000%22%3E%20Interazione%20tra%20Laboratorio%20e%20Giornata%3C%2FFONT%3E%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3ECampione*Giorno%20e%20casuale%3CFONT%20color%3D%22%23ff0000%22%3E%20Variazione%20del%20giorno%3C%2FFONT%3E%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3E%3CFONT%20color%3D%22%23000000%22%3El'R2%20%C3%A8%20eccezionale%2C%20nessun%20problema%20di%20convergenza%2C%20nessuna%20confusione%20ed%20%C3%A8%20facile%20da%20spiegare.%3C%2FFONT%3E%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3E%3CFONT%20color%3D%22%23000000%22%3EQualsiasi%20input%20sarebbe%20apprezzato%3C%2FFONT%3E%3C%2FP%3E%3CP%3E%26nbsp%3B%3C%2FP%3E%3C%2FLINGO-BODY%3E
Choose Language Hide Translation Bar
Mickyboy
Level V

Variable confounds with residual

Hi,

 

l am attempting to analyse data for an interlab study with a mixed model, its a nested design with 5 variables, the dependant variable is titers, the structure of my analysis is as follows

Fixed Effect

Sample (30 of)

Random Effects

Sample*Lab (3 levels)
Sample*Day (3 Levels)
Sample*Run (2 Levels)
Replicate[Sample,Lab,Day,Run] (replicate has 2 levels)
Sample*Lab*Day

 

l get the error message that Replicate[Sample,Lab,Day,Run] confounds with residual, this is the first time i have encountered this message and i am not sure what its telling me, has anyone encountered this before and how did they overcome it??

 

Thanks

Mick

 

 

10 REPLIES 10

Re: Variable confounds with residual

Sample as you define and use it is a FIXED effect on the response.

 

Again, include the main effects to address the primary questions. You may include cross-terms to estimate and test interaction effects if you suspect that the effect of the other factors change from one sample to another. Is that a reasonable expectation? Is there precedent for it? Or can it be ruled out a priori?

Recommended Articles