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    <title>topic Mixed model: which specifications for cross-over designs? in Discussions</title>
    <link>https://community.jmp.com/t5/Discussions/Mixed-model-which-specifications-for-cross-over-designs/m-p/677385#M86371</link>
    <description>&lt;P&gt;I ran a cross-over trial where healthy volunteers came to the lab twice (separated by a wash-out period) and underwent sensory testing at both arm and foot, before and after one of two neuromodulation interventions. Each participant underwent both conditions in a randomly assigned order. We want to see if the neuromodulation interventions affected the outcomes differently for the arm and the foot.&lt;/P&gt;&lt;P&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/P&gt;&lt;P&gt;I would like to analyze the (continuous) outcomes with a mixed model (I use JMP Pro 16.2). My fixed effects are Time (baseline and poststim), Stimulation (two levels), Limb (arm and foot), and all their interactions. I added Subject as a Random effect (intercept only).&lt;/P&gt;&lt;P&gt;I have questions on two levels:&lt;/P&gt;&lt;P&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/P&gt;&lt;P&gt;&lt;STRONG&gt;1. Accounting for baseline values&lt;/STRONG&gt;&lt;/P&gt;&lt;UL&gt;&lt;LI&gt;It has been suggested to me that I adjust for baseline values of the outcome by including them as a fixed effect. This obviously improves the model's fit (lower AIC) and reduces the SE of the parameter estimates, but I worry about including the same values both as outcome and predictor.&lt;/LI&gt;&lt;LI&gt;Moreover, doesn't the inclusion of Subject as a random effect already account for the different baseline values (with the big caveat that the baseline is different for arm and foot and for each stimulation level).&lt;/LI&gt;&lt;LI&gt;To account for that, should I cross Subject(intercept) with Limb and Stimulation, to account for the different baselines for the two limbs in the two sessions? And if yes, how do I specify that correctly in the model?&lt;/LI&gt;&lt;LI&gt;Another option is to calculate change scores (post–baseline), use them as the outcome, and then include baseline as a fixed effect to adjust for them.&lt;/LI&gt;&lt;/UL&gt;&lt;P&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/P&gt;&lt;P&gt;&lt;STRONG&gt;2. Covariance structure&lt;/STRONG&gt;&lt;/P&gt;&lt;UL&gt;&lt;LI&gt;I have also been pondering the need to specify a Covariance structure. Since I have only two time points, I guess I have only one pair of covariances to estimate, and therefore, do I really need to specify a covariance structure at all? Doesn't the inclusion of Subject as a random effect account for the correlation in the observations from the same subject?&lt;/LI&gt;&lt;LI&gt;If I try to specify Covariance structure (called Repeated Structure in JMP), I run into problems. In JMP, the default is set to Residual. But, as described in the JMP manual: "The Residual structure specifies that there is no covariance between observations, namely, the errors are independent." This is obviously not the case here. When I try more appropriate structures, I get into trouble. Because I have four values for each time-point for each subject (e.g. timepoints before: for each limb and for each stimulation), I get error messages, like so: The XXX covariance model requires that no subjects have duplicate values of the Repeated input variable.&lt;/LI&gt;&lt;/UL&gt;&lt;P&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/P&gt;&lt;P&gt;Sorry for the long post. Any help pointing me to the best specification for this model would be greatly appreciated.&lt;/P&gt;</description>
    <pubDate>Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:36:44 GMT</pubDate>
    <dc:creator>arnaudsteyaert</dc:creator>
    <dc:date>2023-09-14T12:36:44Z</dc:date>
    <item>
      <title>Mixed model: which specifications for cross-over designs?</title>
      <link>https://community.jmp.com/t5/Discussions/Mixed-model-which-specifications-for-cross-over-designs/m-p/677385#M86371</link>
      <description>&lt;P&gt;I ran a cross-over trial where healthy volunteers came to the lab twice (separated by a wash-out period) and underwent sensory testing at both arm and foot, before and after one of two neuromodulation interventions. Each participant underwent both conditions in a randomly assigned order. We want to see if the neuromodulation interventions affected the outcomes differently for the arm and the foot.&lt;/P&gt;&lt;P&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/P&gt;&lt;P&gt;I would like to analyze the (continuous) outcomes with a mixed model (I use JMP Pro 16.2). My fixed effects are Time (baseline and poststim), Stimulation (two levels), Limb (arm and foot), and all their interactions. I added Subject as a Random effect (intercept only).&lt;/P&gt;&lt;P&gt;I have questions on two levels:&lt;/P&gt;&lt;P&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/P&gt;&lt;P&gt;&lt;STRONG&gt;1. Accounting for baseline values&lt;/STRONG&gt;&lt;/P&gt;&lt;UL&gt;&lt;LI&gt;It has been suggested to me that I adjust for baseline values of the outcome by including them as a fixed effect. This obviously improves the model's fit (lower AIC) and reduces the SE of the parameter estimates, but I worry about including the same values both as outcome and predictor.&lt;/LI&gt;&lt;LI&gt;Moreover, doesn't the inclusion of Subject as a random effect already account for the different baseline values (with the big caveat that the baseline is different for arm and foot and for each stimulation level).&lt;/LI&gt;&lt;LI&gt;To account for that, should I cross Subject(intercept) with Limb and Stimulation, to account for the different baselines for the two limbs in the two sessions? And if yes, how do I specify that correctly in the model?&lt;/LI&gt;&lt;LI&gt;Another option is to calculate change scores (post–baseline), use them as the outcome, and then include baseline as a fixed effect to adjust for them.&lt;/LI&gt;&lt;/UL&gt;&lt;P&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/P&gt;&lt;P&gt;&lt;STRONG&gt;2. Covariance structure&lt;/STRONG&gt;&lt;/P&gt;&lt;UL&gt;&lt;LI&gt;I have also been pondering the need to specify a Covariance structure. Since I have only two time points, I guess I have only one pair of covariances to estimate, and therefore, do I really need to specify a covariance structure at all? Doesn't the inclusion of Subject as a random effect account for the correlation in the observations from the same subject?&lt;/LI&gt;&lt;LI&gt;If I try to specify Covariance structure (called Repeated Structure in JMP), I run into problems. In JMP, the default is set to Residual. But, as described in the JMP manual: "The Residual structure specifies that there is no covariance between observations, namely, the errors are independent." This is obviously not the case here. When I try more appropriate structures, I get into trouble. Because I have four values for each time-point for each subject (e.g. timepoints before: for each limb and for each stimulation), I get error messages, like so: The XXX covariance model requires that no subjects have duplicate values of the Repeated input variable.&lt;/LI&gt;&lt;/UL&gt;&lt;P&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/P&gt;&lt;P&gt;Sorry for the long post. Any help pointing me to the best specification for this model would be greatly appreciated.&lt;/P&gt;</description>
      <pubDate>Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:36:44 GMT</pubDate>
      <guid>https://community.jmp.com/t5/Discussions/Mixed-model-which-specifications-for-cross-over-designs/m-p/677385#M86371</guid>
      <dc:creator>arnaudsteyaert</dc:creator>
      <dc:date>2023-09-14T12:36:44Z</dc:date>
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